One extract I'd like to share I've copied and pasted, but it's all there for you to read.
Blehhhhhh Writes:
'Sit back - this is gonna be long.
You have to understand - this isn't just mindless fear coming from nowhere. This isn't media-driven. This fear comes from a million interactions with men over a lifetime - men who go too far and feel that it's ok to touch/grope and otherwise threaten you (and of course, rape, at the far end of the spectrum).
This starts early - bra snapping, for instance. I'm not saying it's sexual assault for a young guy to snap a young girl's bra, but it's intrusive, unwanted, humiliating and painful. Somehow, these boys think it's ok or even funny to do this. It's objectifying and implies that these boys think a girl's body/underwear are his to do with as he pleases.
I remember in 8th grade Flashdance was a huge movie (yes, I'm old). I was wearing - as a lot of girls were - a sweatshirt that was cut out at the neck, so one shoulder was exposed (like the lead character in the movie). I didn't think anything of how I looked, I just wanted to wear a Flashdancesweatshirt. That day, a boy I had never spoken to sneered at me and said "You're just wearing that so everyone looks at your boobs." He was angry. I have never been so humiliated before or since. I was 12 and I had no concept that someone might be looking at my breasts, or that someone would wear a shirt just to make that happen.
The thing that burned that interaction on my brain though, and makes it a propos, was his anger about it. Like I was trying to fuck with him. It's the same anger that comes through loud and clear when some guy yells "Hey, nice tits."
In Jr. high/high school we all start to learn about the unexpected grope. About the guy who slips his hand on your chair so you sit on it, then laughs with all his friends. About the hard pinch on your ass in the hallway, or the straight up grab both your breasts move. Again, mocking, angry laughter with the guy's friends usually accompanies these things.
Are you starting to get the picture?
High school is usually also when men (often much older men) start to drive very slowly next to us, trying to "talk" to us and get us in the car.
There are so many many more examples. Guys grinding on you in the club. Guys jerking off next to you on the bus, guys cornering you on the street. Guys and their friends forming a circle around you and you barely escape.
Here's another good one from my own memory banks. I was a senior in high school and went to a college party with a friend. We were both gothy girls and my friend called herself a "witch." One of the guys at the party asked her about the pentagram she was wearing, she told him she was a witch, and he started to get really belligerent. His friends joined in, taunting us both and saying we were devil worshipers. Then shit got scary - he and his friend picked up pool cues and said they were going to shove them so far up us they'd get the devil out. They tried to grab us, we shoved past them and ran.
Are you starting to understand why strange men talking to you on the street is so threatening?
I've had guys follow me home from work. There was one guy who lived at a halfway house at the end of my block who used to wait for me to get off the bus so he could leer at me and say all sorts of disgusting shit.
Thankfully, most of this has stopped now that I'm a mom and middle aged - that makes me pretty much invisible to men (it's actually kind of funny how invisible I am now!) But -- as recently as 2 years ago when I was 7 months pregnant there were guys who would yell shit at me.
Oh, and I'm just an average-looking woman.
All this to say - there's a long history for most women of harassment, straight up assault, possibly rape that has us all in a constant state of alert. So, keep that in mind if you want to meet a girl you see on the street.
Don't act threatening. Don't follow her. If she seems freaked out, stop trying to talk to her. Your best bet is NOT to compliment her on her appearance. Strike up a conversation about something else. Say something funny. Talk about the weather. Comment on what's in her shopping cart. ANYTHING but her appearance (that includes asking about tattoos, piercings, etc). That's just a giant red flag. And then, if she seems friendly, keep talking for a bit - like a friendly person, not someone who wants to get laid. And then - give her your number and ask if she'd like to get coffee sometime.
There is NO REASON for a man to talk to a woman about her appearance if he doesn't know her. It's intrusive, even if it's just "you look nice today." Why can't you just think that, and keep it to yourself? Why do you feel the need to make her know that you think she's attractive? That's all about your wants and your needs and nothing at all to do with her.
So again I say, if you want to talk to a woman you've never met, talk about anything else but what she looks like.'
Wow!
It really shows the difference between men and women, at least how we are quite oblivious to it all. It's very unfortunate that she or any girl has to go through these types of experiences. Me being a man, even though I've had my butt being pinched in a club, I will never ever know what it's really like. I will admit I perve at women, I've been to stag dos, gone to strip clubs, partaken in lap dances etc. However, I have never gone up to stangers and said crude remarks about their bodies, and definitely not touched. If I notice a rather attractive lady, honestly I'll perve a little, but subtly, keep the thoughts to myself and that would be the end of it.
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| 'American Girl in Italy' by Ruth Orkin |
The stories on that thread are interesting, because being a male I've no idea of how often these things occur. I feel like there needs to be some form of education with regards to the differences between men and women. We will never solve our differences without acknowledging/providing open discussions on experience we go through. Even if a guy with good intentions, goes up to women to honestly tell them they look nice, it may not come off as how the guy intended. From a comment in the thread:
shakingpaper writes
'Why does that guy feel the need to say that I'm pretty? Should I keep my guard up now? Is that really all I have to offer--my looks? Why did he have to single me out? Now I feel embarrassed, I wish men would leave me alone....etc.'
smilesoup writes
'This is also exactly what runs through my head. Apprehension, nervousness, embarrassment, and potentially fear.'
I suppose some girls can appreciate the nicer comments said in the best intentions. However at least there is context in understanding why some girls have this fear/anxiety over strangers. Regardless if you're giving someone a compliment.
I mean we see strangers every day of our lives, we know nothing about them. The only thing we can judge is the appearance and how they look. If they show certain parts of their bodies in public, then men will naturally look. It's a survival reproductive instinct in our bodies if you will, it's natural. The difference however, is in controlling yourself and not be a jerk. Rule of thumb is never disturb a stranger, unless it's an emergency. Personally I don't know why individual guys do it.
Just for the thrill? Maybe they are sad and lonely and this is the only way they are able to make contact with a beautiful woman. Maybe some are jealous of their looks, because they know that they could never be with someone that attractive they end up hating them and resenting them. Some may do it out of immaturity. Some thinks the world revolves around and only conceave women as only an object in their eyes. Some may do it to get a rise out of the person. Lots and lots of reasons... I swear I don't envy you girls. I feel like men have it much simpler. Constantly nervous and in potential fear, just from your looks, sounds like a horrible way to live.
Now knowing all this, it's probably going to make me more aware than I am already. This only reinforces my attitude to forced encounters. Can I ever pay a compliment to a complete stranger for a one time thing? I certainly think it's rather difficult to make definite contact with a girl with this method. In the end I don't think I would anyway. I'm far too passive to do that. So a smile and a hi is all you're going to get girls, unless something completely blows my mind and I just have to say it, and I'm not listening to my music. :p
I remember once, I noticed a girls cutest most slender hands, holding a bar whilst standing on a train. Never in my mind would I thought I'd give her a compliment, it's just something I noticed and kept to myself. Thinking back it would definitely freak her out, and probably make her all subconscious about it.I suppose all girls will treat each harassments/encounters differently, the fact that it happens all the time is worrying and unsettling. Makes me wonder how you girls walk out of the door sometimes.
If you're a guy and you want to meet a girl on the street or in a random public place this is something need to learn and be aware of. They have no idea who you are, you're stepping into their private space, so they're naturally going to be defensive to a random stranger. You'd need a lot of things going for you for it to even work. The setting has to be right, and the ice to be broken and that they have established that you're safe and not a creep.
This all sort of steps into that debate on girls dressing sensibly and responsibly. Yet it's such a shame, because you should be able to dress how you like and not be perceived a sexual objects. Yet it happens time and time again. It seems you girls just learn to deal with it, cope as best as you're able to, and now we've come to terms that this is 'normal' for this to happen, but it shouldn't be really it's the guys that need to stop it.
My advice is to learn to be safe girls and try to educate your fellow men.
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